Is being in the details, micro-managing and following your instincts the key to building a business? Has an obsession with professional managers blinded us to what really matters in founding and scaling a business? Welcome to the debate about founder mode v manager mode, which was started by Brian Chesky, the co-founder of Airbnb, and Paul Graham, the co-founder of Y Combinator.

Will Shu, the chief executive and co-founder of Deliveroo, is an ideal person to ask about this. He founded Deliveroo, the online delivery service, in 2013 alongside Greg Orlowski. 12 years later he is still the chief executive. But Deliveroo is now a very different business. It is worth more than £2bn, listed on the London Stock Exchange and has had highs and lows. How does he think a founder should run a business?

In this episode of the Business Leader Podcast, Will Shu looks back on building Deliveroo, how his role has changed, how he strives to keep a start-up culture at the heart of the company, and his own views on the founder mode v manager mode debate. Shu also says what he wishes he had done differently in building Deliveroo - and the answer may surprise you…